I want to turbocharge my car

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
07/31/2014 at 12:35 • Filed to: turbo-buick-lopnik

My car is one of few 3800 Series II cars that didn't have some sort of forced induction option. Since I'm an insufferable hipster that strives to be different from everyone else without spending much money, I've decided to change that in the coming year. First I was thinking of doing an engine swap with a supercharged car, but that was a bit too much "bought not built" for my taste, and this engine has been maintained by my dad and I for nearly its whole life and runs like a treat, so I don't want to stop using it.

At the same time, superchargers are a bit... pedestrian. I much prefer the noise of a turbo spooling up, and the extra driving dynamic added by trying to keep your boost pressure up through corners, the "second wind" the engine gets when it reaches boost, etc.

Also, if you look at the picture, the front exhaust manifold crosses directly underneath the intake on the engine. putting on a turbo would be a matter of cutting a section out of the front manifold, welding in the adapters for a turbo, then re-routing the intake tubing.

I don't want much boost, nor am I looking for insane amounts of power. I'm mostly doing this because I like the noise, and saying I have a Buick LeSabre Turbo, and because a turbocharged 3.8 is what the GNX had so I have a whole new set of stretched truths to tell people who talk shit on my car. Everyone wins.

The problem with this is the transmissions on these cars are made of glass, and I don't have a ton of money, so I don't want to make more than 250-275hp over the 205 that the engine gets stock, which means I want to run 6 or 7 pounds of boost. If I remember correctly from MCM magazine issue #2 where Rake details turbo builds, I'll want a turbo with an internal wastegate, some mandrel bends for the plumbing, I'll need to tap in somewhere for oil, I'll probably want a wideband sensor, and I'll probably need a tune. Do I really need anything more than that for a very basic budget low-pressure turbo build?

Here's an actual turbocharged Buick for your time.

And here's another.

EDIT: Holy crap my dad has no issue with me doing this. And a guy has offered to help me weld things up, and he's done turbo builds before :D Now I just need to find the parts and get a job so I can actually buy them.

DISCUSSION (37)

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:39

Engine designed for supercharger application.

Wants to turbo it.

Wat.

I'd call turbos more pedestrian now, since they're on literally everything.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:41

I say northstar swap.

I'm just not much for Turbos unless they are in a Grand National, Syclone, or Typhoon.

Especially with how easy it would be to slap a supercharger on it. And you know superchargers have their own distinct sound too!

(also the boost range you want is PERFECT supercharger territory)

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:42

You should go for the best of all the worlds, supercharger AND a turbo ;)

Mattbob > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:42

Thats a lot of money to put into that car.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
07/31/2014 at 12:43

Yeah, but it's a lot easier to make a lot more boost down the line if I decide to. I can incrementally add parts as I get more money like an intercooler, boost controller, etc. The turbos I'm looking at getting can go from 7-30 lbs of boost, which maxed out could net me ~450hp on this engine.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/31/2014 at 12:44

Yeah, but modern ecoboost/whatever engines are usually smaller fourpots with a turbo just so they aren't insufferably slow. The 3800SII is already a peppy engine, the turbo is the icing on the cake. And I like the noise more than supercharger whine.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
07/31/2014 at 12:44

I... would need a sponsor for that. And probably a new engine. Or a new car. But that is an orgasmic thought.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Mattbob
07/31/2014 at 12:45

The people I've talked to say I could be up to 270hp for $500 or so, since I'm not using a kit and just fabbing the plumbing myself.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:46

Superchargers are only used on today's high-performance cars.

Everyone and their aunt has a turbocharger on their Fiesta. It's pedestrian.

I learned to drive on a supercharged Park Ave , and there is nothing pedestrian about the power delivery. Also, even that car had audible supercharger whine. I would highly suggest going the supercharger route.

Mattbob > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:50

will you engine control system need to be changed? New MAF? new injectors? All of that and the cost of the turbo for $500 would be pretty impressive. I can see how you would save money if you are fabricating the manifolds (I'm impressed btw), but the extra stuff you need seems like it would be a lot.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
07/31/2014 at 12:51

From what I can find it would actually be more expensive for me to do the top swap necessary to put a supercharger on, and the massive amounts of low-end power they put out would almost certainly spell doom for my non-HeavyDuty transmission. I'm thinking a turbo, since it makes boost higher in the rev range, would put less strain on the hard components of the tranny. Or is my thinking misguided here?

Also turbos look cooler under the hood and the complexity appeals to me. And I could always buy a supercharger later and put it on after the turbo for twincharged goodness.

Nibbles > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:52

These guys are your best friends.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:53

I have no idea. I'm not mechanically inclined. I'm more of a "bought not built" type of person. I would never attempt this on my car. If I felt the need, I might have a trusted shop do it for me. All I know is that the 3800II was designed to run with a supercharger.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Mattbob
07/31/2014 at 12:54

Right, I forgot I'd probably need new injectors (stock is 22lbs/hr) and a new pump (stock is 40gal/hr), which would probably be another $500 or so.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Nibbles
07/31/2014 at 12:55

ZZP has kind of stopped paying much attention to 3800 stuff in lieu of the cruze platform, and $3000+ for their turbo kit is a little rich for my blood. Though I say this as they are currently re-tuning my PCM.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:56

yeah but 450hp on that car will probably trash it's internals, as well as the trans.

it doesn't seem like a plan of action I'd take on a DD.

Which Buick is it again?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
07/31/2014 at 12:57

The L32/L67 was designed for a supercharger. This is an L36, which was designed to be naturally aspirated. Pretty sure the biggest difference is a transmission with a more durable diff, and obviously different cams. Other than that I do think they're identical.

Nibbles > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 12:57

Well the 3800 is actually dead so that's understandable. The nice part is, if you keep an eye on their site, you can get yourself some SICK DEALS BRO when they put nifty shit on sale

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
07/31/2014 at 12:58

Buick LeSabre. Never offered with boost. Obviously if I started climbing over 300hp I'd be toughening the engine up. New transmission or an HD conversion, hardened pistons, new valves, cams, etc. but those mods would all come as I got more money.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Nibbles
07/31/2014 at 13:01

Yeah, I'll have to see what they do on Black Friday. Might get me some injectors and a pair of Brembos for the front to help with the insane amounts of brake fade I get whilst autocrossing.

Racescort666 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:07

A few questions:

1. Intercooled or not?

2. Do you have a tuning shop you plan to go to?

3. Are you going to manually control boost (i.e. manual boost controller?)

Things to consider:

Turbos add a lot of heat to the charge air when it's compressed. You said you're looking for around 6-7 psig of boost which is roughly a pressure ratio of 0.5. Most turbochargers aren't very efficient at that low of a pressure ratio so this usually means more heat.

Can your stock fuel injectors and fuel pump handle the increased fuel requirement? Fuel pump probably can but the fuel injectors are rated in cc/min (or lb/min) and increasing pulse width (the duration the fuel injector is opened) starts to have diminishing returns after 85% duty cycle. If you swap fuel injectors, there's more work that needs to be done beyond a simple pulse width change.

For fuel pressure, normally your manifold is under vacuum so the pressure differential over the fuel rail (usually 50-100 psi) literally sucks fuel through the injectors. Now, it will be pressurized and your pressure differential could be less than what's anticipated by the ECU. You should have a fuel pressure regulator that compensates for that but you need to find out if it will work under pressure rather than only vacuum.

You need to make sure that the MAP sensor will work under pressure as well as vacuum too. I think GM's MAP sensors do but it's something to check into. Also, you need to make sure that the ECU will recognize boost pressure. Again, I think they do because GM's MAP sensors operate on absolute pressure.

If you're going to have a shop tune your car, most of these things they should be able to take care of in the programming but any hardware, you would be responsible for.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't have as much hands on experience with turbos as I'd like, I've been more on the technical side of it than the practical, but I usually consider physically attaching the turbo to the vehicle to be about 25% of the work.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:10

This is ambitious as fuck. Now, i'm not mechanically inclined at all, but i'd assume you'll be spending more than $500 on this build. A good rule of thumb for a pricing a build is taking your estimated budget, and then doubling it, and adding the original budget to that one more time, just in case. I wish you all the best with your ambitious plan

P.S. did MCM'S gramps prompt this idea? :P

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Racescort666
07/31/2014 at 13:13

When I wrote the post I forgot about the fuel system changes I'd need to make, which, like you said will be injectors and probably a regulator. As for the tune, I have a friend with HPTuner that I can go to and we can (hopefully) tweak things ourselves, though that is an interesting point about pressure vs. vacuum in the manifold. I'll have to look at the differences between the supercharged and non-supercharged versions of this engine to figure out what's different and get a better idea of what's needed for a bare minimum.

Textured Soy Protein > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:14

Um...allow me to be the one to chime in and say,

Why the hell would you take a Buick LeSabre and put any money into it beyond basic maintenance?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power
07/31/2014 at 13:15

I've had "forced induction" tumbling around my head for some time, but yeah Gramps sort of helped me lean towards turbo instead of super. And the estimated cost has gone up considering I totally forgot about fuel system mods I'll have to make. Buh.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Textured Soy Protein
07/31/2014 at 13:15

Because I enjoy my car and enjoy doing ridiculous things to it.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:19

well as long as you built everything else up with it as you go.

One thing to keep in mind that I like to remind people of. That's a lot more power (I know it's an eventually a lot more power, but still) I recommend a brake upgrade if you start cresting over 300 hp. It's great to go, it's also great to stop lol

Racescort666 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:19

I don't know how well this would work but hypothetically you could use all of the supercharged gear without the supercharger. If you had the sensors, injectors, regulator, ECU , it would be monitoring MAP and adjust the fuel accordingly without having to make changes.

This is pure wild speculation of course but essentially for fueling, you're looking at a fuel map like this where load is actually manifold pressure. Since the supercharged engines already ran under boost, the look up tables will already be populated.

Kinja'd!!!

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 13:19

told ya about the cost for it! it's a good idea, and if you are mechanically inclined, you can do it cheap, more power to you! it'd be awesome if by 2020 you had one sick 400hp, Buick autocross yacht!

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Racescort666
07/31/2014 at 13:34

Hmmm. So then I could probably just buy an entire supercharged engine and harvest parts off of it. I've seen them on craigslist for around $400 pulled from a totaled car.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/31/2014 at 13:41

If he really wants to not be pedestrian, I suggest a Lysholm twin screw compressor over a Roots-type blower (which is what GM used).

Plus extra supercharger whine. That has more points than an excessive dump valve on a turbo setup.

Racescort666 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 14:19

That might be the route to take to solve most of your sensor limitations. From a boost control standpoint, having a manual boost controller is about as simple as it comes and all of the electronics are fed by information based on MAP.

From a free body diagram standpoint, a turbocharged engine is no different than a supercharged one except that there is a mysterious box powering the compressor that causes delays in boost delivery.

Jedidiah > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 17:09

This is just my opinion, but I think supercharging would be the better option.

It has a more linear powerband than turbocharging and would be cheaper and easier to do. Swapping the intake and pulleys from a factory supercharged buick sounds much easier than doing a bunch of expensive custom work and you get to keep your pristine bottom end. *hehe*

Added dynamics doesn't always mean that it is dynamically favorable; you will get more consistent performance from a supercharger.

samssun > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 20:19

If you only want 7-8 psi, why go to all the trouble of a turbo, and still have to wait for it? A supercharger would be cheaper and easier, while providing all boost all the time.

Vince-The Roadside Mechanic > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/31/2014 at 20:33

Supercharge it. It gives you more usable power.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Vince-The Roadside Mechanic
07/31/2014 at 21:58

Hey Vince, EL_ULY said I should ask you for authorship to Pull Start My Heart. So I was wondering if that was possible to gain Authorship.

Vince-The Roadside Mechanic > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man
07/31/2014 at 22:53

There you go.